Legislature(1999 - 2000)
03/22/2000 03:10 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
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SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
March 22, 2000
3:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Robin Taylor, Vice Chairman
Senator Pete Kelly
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Jerry Mackie
Senator Sean Parnell
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 39(RES)
Encouraging the United States Congress to pass S. 2214, a bill
opening the coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to
responsible exploration, development, and production of its oil and
gas resources.
-MOVED CS SJR 39(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 54
Relating to urging the exclusion of national forests in Alaska from
President Clinton's proposal for withdrawal of roadless areas in
the national forest system.
-MOVED HJR 54 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SJR 39 - No previous action to consider.
HJR 54 - No previous action to consider.
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Drue Pearce
Senate District F
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99811
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SJR 39.
Ms. Susan Schrader
Alaska Conservation Voters
Alaska Conservation Alliance
P.O. Box 22151
Juneau, AK 99802
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 39 and HJR 54.
Mr. Jim Sykes
P.O. Box 696
Palmer, AK 99645
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed SJR 39.
Ms. Pam LaBolle, President
Alaska State Chamber of Commerce
217 Second Street, #201
Juneau, AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HJR 54.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 00-13, SIDE A
Number 001
SJR 39-ENCOURAGING CONGRESS TO OPEN ANWR
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:10 p.m. and announced SJR 39 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR PEARCE said SJR 39 was introduced by the Rules Committee at
her request. U.S. Senator Frank Murkowski has introduced S. 2214,
a bill that calls for opening the coastal plain of the Arctic
National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to responsible exploration,
development and production of oil and gas resources. SJR 39
supports Alaska's role in providing the nation with a major portion
of its domestic oil and encourages Congress to pass S. 2214. It
further resolves that the legislature opposes any effort to make
the coastal plain a national monument. There is concern that
President Clinton will use the Antiquities Act for further Alaskan
withdrawals, including ANWR, before he leaves office this year.
SENATOR LINCOLN said that a similar resolution [HJR 11] passed last
year. She distributed a proposed amendment that contains the exact
language that was included in the previous year's resolution. The
proposed amendment reads as follows.
Page 2, following line 30, insert:
WHEREAS the state will ensure the continued health and
productivity of the Porcupine Caribou herd and the
protection of the land, water, and wildlife resources
during the exploration and development of the coastal
plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge; and
Page 3, following line 6, insert:
FURTHER RESOLVED that oil exploration and development
activity be conducted in a manner that protects the
wildlife and the environment and utilizes the state's
work force to the maximum extent possible; and be it
SENATOR LINCOLN moved to adopt the amendment.
SENATOR GREEN objected for the purpose of discussion.
SENATOR PEARCE said she has no problem with the amendment.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked how the state is ensuring the continued
health of the herd and whether it has a policy with Lloyd's.
SENATOR PEARCE said there is mitigation on the North Slope within
the present Prudhoe Bay Unit and other units, which disallows some
activities during calving and other important seasons for the
central herd. She assumed that it has always been the promise of
the state that any adverse effects on the Porcupine herd during the
exploration, which takes place during winter when the caribou
aren't there, will be mitigated. She was sure the same sorts of
policies would continue and the ANWR project will require State and
Borough permits as well. The caribou herds have been an on-going
concern of the people of the North Slope, particularly the people
in Kaktovik who utilize the herd for a portion of their food each
year. They feel comfortable that impacts on the herd can be
mitigated.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if the objection was maintained. There
being no further objection, the motion to adopt the amendment
carried.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced the committee would take public
testimony.
Number 500
MS. SUSAN SCHRADER, representing the Alaska Conservation Voters and
the Alaska Conservation Alliance (ACV-ACA), mentioned that all
Americans, as well as the 22,000 members of the ACV-ACA, enjoyed
the lower fuel prices last year and now feel the pinch of higher
prices. ACV-ACA members do not, however, believe that drilling in
ANWR is the answer to the current situation.
MS. SCHRADER brought some polling results to the committee's
attention, and particularly some results that relate to a "Whereas"
clause on page 2, line 28, that states, "The vast majority of
Alaskans support development in the coastal plain." She felt that
is a profound overstatement. Earlier this year, the ACA contracted
with Ivan Moore Research to conduct a telephone survey of 500
Alaskans. Only 50.7 percent of those polled supported drilling in
ANWR; 41.7 percent favored protecting caribou and bird habitat; and
7.6 percent were neutral. She repeated it is a bit of an
overstatement to suggest that 51 percent is a vast majority. These
results were very much in line with other polls conducted in Alaska
by ACA in years passed.
Another question was whether respondents favor state funding of
Arctic Power Group. The results showed that only 41.6 percent
favor state funding, while 46.6 percent did not support this use of
state funds. 11.8 percent did not know.
MS. SCHRADER said the most compelling and simple argument against
opening ANWR is that 95 percent of the North Slope is already
available for oil and gas exploration. The coastal plain of ANWR
equals five percent. While the Natives of Kaktovik have
consistently supported opening the refuge, the Gwit'chen people
spoke in Canada and Alaska and consider the coastal plain a sacred
ground. For an estimated 20,000 years, their traditional
subsistence lifestyle has depended heavily on the 129,000 caribou
of the Porcupine herd, which uses the coastal plain as a birthing
ground. Many believe that protection of this herd, the coastal
plain, and the Gwit'chen culture makes this issue a human rights
one. Opening the refuge will not be a quick fix to the high price
of gasoline. During the gas crisis in 1973, it was the desire of
people to conserve fuel that resolved the crisis by using more fuel
efficient cars. Other solutions to the high price of fuel are out
there; opening the last five percent of the North Slope is not the
only one.
SENATOR TAYLOR said an ice age was underway 10,000 years ago so
there were probably no caribou up there, and he just watched a
television program about a wooly mammoth skeleton found in that
area. He thought she should check some of her facts.
MS. SCHRADER responded that it is her understanding that the Bering
land-sea bridge was formed and in place somewhere between 10,000
and 20,000 years ago. The best theory of the anthropologists is
that the Athabaskan people migrated across this bridge at that
time. Her concern is that those people have been in that area for
about 20,000 years and they have been living a subsistence
lifestyle.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked her where she got most of her information on
the coastal plain of ANWR.
MS. SCHRADER answered that she hasn't been in the refuge itself,
but she has been in the Brooks Range. She spent quite a while
along the Noatak. The coastal plain is a known birthing area for
the caribou herd.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said the coastal plain is a very small portion of
ANWR. It's very different from the high country. He noted the
coastal plain is a flat, high-level mosquito bog. He couldn't
imagine that anyone camps on the coastal plain for any length of
time during the summer.
MS. SCHRADER said her argument is that the coastal plain is a known
birthing area for the caribou herd. She said they are talking
about a very small area but it is not barren and it is very
critical.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said the exaggerations of the threat of
development and modern technology on ANWR does not help her
argument because the size of the footprint and the ability to
develop in ANWR with minimal impact is there.
MS. SCHRADER said the exaggeration is in the resolution. The
physical footprint the petrochemical industry has to make to do the
exploration may be smaller now, but she can guarantee there would
be helicopter and fixed-wing overflights, exploring and 3-D seismic
testing during the winter when the polar bears are denning. To risk
the last five percent of the North Slope because we're debating who
is exaggerating more is shortsighted. She emphasized the importance
of oil conservation.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD responded that numerically her facts aren't
accurate.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Ms. Schrader if she has any numbers to back up
her statement that the oil crisis of 1973 was alleviated by the
public's conservation measures, such as buying gas efficient cars.
MS. SCHRADER said she would get some. She said her point is that
fuel conservation by the citizens of the United States will go a
long way to helping the current problem.
SENATOR KELLY asked Ms. Schrader if she is trying to slow down this
resolution.
MS. SCHRADER said she didn't think her testimony would make much
difference. She hoped it would at least make them pause and think
about the many other Alaskans who care about this issue. She
thought the committee needs to look at the polling data carefully.
Number 1555
SENATOR GREEN said she recalled that the Arctic Power Group
presented documented figures that showed the Porcupine caribou herd
population tripled since oil development began on the North Slope.
MS. SCHRADER responded that her understanding is that Senator Green
is talking about a different herd. She wasn't sure to what extent
the Porcupine caribou herd migrates into the Prudhoe Bay area.
There are several other herds. She offered to get her the correct
information.
SENATOR LINCOLN thanked Ms. Schrader and said the idea of the
committee is to allow people of different voices to be heard on
legislation or anything the committee is discussing. She didn't
want Ms. Schrader to feel like she was going to be grilled every
time she sits at the table.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass SJR 39 from committee with individual
recommendations.
MR. JIM SYKES, representing himself, interrupted to say that he
wanted to testify in opposition to SJR 39. He asked committee
members to think about their place as legislators in Alaska and
Alaska as a producer of oil for the U.S. Alaska produces about 1
percent of the world's oil and about 20 percent of American
production. He appreciated Ms. Schrader's comments about
conservation. Some people think we need to increase our production
of oil so we can have more energy security. The fact is quite
opposite. The more we deplete our reserves, the higher the danger
is that we will not have any national defense capability and have
no alternatives. In the absence of a national energy plan, the
United States needs to be very careful about our resources. He
couldn't understand why the State was pushing to open the Arctic
Refuge so fast.
MR. SYKES quoted from the 1998-99 U.S. Geological Survey Artic
National Wildlife Refuge 10-02 Area Petroleum Assessment Report
which states, "About 2.6 billion barrels of oil distributed in
about three fields is expected to be economically recoverable in
the unformed (ph) part of the 10-02 area." That means there is no
central location for a huge pot of oil - the oil is spread across
the 10-02 area. If one compares the estimated 2.6 billion barrels
with the unexplored potential between the Colville and Canning
Rivers, which the State owns, it certainly makes sense that should
be explored first and those supplies should be used up long before
ANWR is considered. ANWR is a very special area and, if there is
not much oil there, it should not be high on the priority list.
Although the technology has improved, any spill that occurred would
have the potential of reaching the coast so it could effect
millions of acres. The second area that should be explored is the
NPRA. He also thought they needed to consider that development
would happen in a "net" rather than a small footprint. These are
very important national arguments.
MR. SYKES asked the committee to look at the website of the Union
of Concerned Scientists. They have issued a report on how the
United States can lessen its dependence on fossil fuels over 80
percent over 30 years without degrading our lifestyle. We simply
have to make changes in technology and in the way we do things.
Alaska's oil is a drop in the bucket as far as American consumption
goes. It should be saved for our grandchildren in case we don't
responsibly manage our resources.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved CSSJR 39(RES) from committee with individual
recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
HJR 54-EXCLUDE AK NATL FORESTS FROM ROADLESS POL
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced HJR 54 to be up for consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS, sponsor of HJR 54, said Alaska has
two of the largest national forests in America: the Tongass and
Chugach. He objects to a roadless policy for several reasons.
First, it's against the law. ANILCA specifically prohibits
withdrawals without the express direction of Congress. Second, we
just spent over 10 years and $15 million to create the Tongass Land
Management Plan, which addresses all uses of the forest. Third,
the public process is being followed to produce a plan for the
Chugach National Forest. Of concern to many in the Chugach is the
spruce bark beetle infestation. If the roadless policy is
implemented, it will be harder to manage. The Governor, late last
year, wrote a strong letter opposing the roadless plan.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked whether, regarding the Further Resolved
clause on page 3 that urges the Governor to determine what legal
action may be available under ANILCA, he thought this would create
an expense for the state.
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS answered that he would have to talk to the
Governor's office about that.
MS. PAM LABOLLE, President, Alaska State Chamber of Commerce,
stated strong support for HJR 54. The Chamber requests that the
legislature support all efforts to stop the Forest Service's
proposed roadless policy and that the State sue the Forest Service
to block application of the roadless initiative. The Clinton
Administration is making a folly out of the efforts spent to
develop the Tongass Land Management Plan.
MS. SUSAN SCHRADER opposed HJR 54 saying her members use the
Tongass Forest for a variety of reasons - subsistence, recreation,
and commercial use. They support the efforts by the Clinton
Administration and the U.S. Forest Service to protect the existing
roadless areas in the Tongass and Chugach National Forests.
The roadless proposal, she explained, does not create wilderness;
only Congress can do that. A more practical way to look at this
policy is as another tool the Forest Service can use to manage
national forests. It will help allow the Forest Service to protect
the water quality for the fish and habitat for wildlife and to
ensure that there are opportunities for remote recreation.
MS. SCHRADER said this roadless policy does not create new parks or
refuges, it does not violate the "no more" clause in ANILCA. This
policy does not affect existing roads. In fact, the money saved by
not building new roads in roadless areas can be used to maintain
existing roads in the Tongass and the Chugach. Nationwide, the
Forest Service estimates it has an $8.4 million backlog in road
maintenance. It doesn't make sense to keep building roads if you
can't maintain the ones you have.
This policy does not mean an end to the timber industry. Billions
of board feet are within roaded areas in the Tongass that will
continue to be available. There are 4,600 miles of existing roads
in the Tongass. There are no timber-dependent communities in the
Chugach or near it. Another concern is that this proposal will
affect other rights guaranteed under ANILCA or similar laws. It
does not. RS 2477 rights-of-way would still be maintained.
If the committee needs a good reason to protect our roadless areas,
it can look south to Washington and see what's happened there.
TAPE 00-13, SIDE B
Number 2400
MS. SCHRADER noted problems in the Mount Baker and Snoqualmie
Forest with landslides, damage to salmon streams, game poaching,
and the increased risk of human caused fires. Alaska can do it
differently by giving the Forest Service another tool to protect
the national forests for the benefit of all its users.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Ms. Schrader if she saw a program on C-SPAN in
which the Senate Energy and Resources Committee had Secretary of
Agriculture Mike Dombeck (ph) and Undersecretary of Agriculture Jim
Lyons answer questions about this policy. Ms. Schrader indicated
she hadn't.
SENATOR TAYLOR said according to statements made by Mr. Dombeck and
Mr. Lyons, Governor Knowles said in his letter that this would be
an outrage and a double-cross. Her presentation sounds very
different from the comments made by Mr. Dombeck and Mr. Lyons.
Senator Craig, who conducted the hearing, was quite shocked to
learn that this policy was considered with no public input and that
environmental organizations wrote letters directly to the Secretary
who gave them to the President.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she thinks the Majority isn't keeping Senator
Taylor busy enough if he has the time to watch so many TV programs.
She asked why the Governor's letter and the Chamber of Commerce
spoke only to the Tongass National Forest while HJR 54 speaks to
both the Tongass and the Chugach National Forests.
SENATOR TAYLOR answered that the reason is because of the timing of
when the policies were announced and when the letters occurred. No
initial discussion occurred about the Chugach but many issues about
the Tongass were pending. The Chugach was included in the roadless
policy since that time.
Number 2150
CHAIRMAN HALFORD added that some provisions of the resolution apply
more to the Tongass, such as timber harvest, and other provisions
apply more to the Chugach, such as the beetle infestation problem.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass HJR 54 from committee with individual
recommendations. There were no objections and it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 4:05 p.m.
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